Topic: America's Future--Part 3 (Globalism)

Then kern and I got into it on the topic of globalism. His serve:

There is a globalist chain of thought that nations are obsolete. Government should become world government, sovereignty is obsolete, rule by the people and local self determination are obsolete in this nexus of thought. Recent signs of this thinking include the large number of fragments of international law in CAFTA, and the Supreme Court ducking the question of the validity of international law within our constitutional system. This thinking is advanced often by self-serving foreign interests, and guilty Americans who wish to give away our hard earned advantages. If globalist thinking continues in America obviously we will not lead in geopolitics.
Concerning education and economy, we cannot lead in either unless there is economic reward for the educated. When highly trained technologists are shoved aside for cheap foreign technological labor the incentive to take all thos darned hard math and science courses ends. English language education is crucial to the quality and depth of our education. We must eliminate the guilty need to sacrafice the education of American children for foreign speaking offspring of those who are mainly here illegaly anyway. Then we must again reward eloquence and depth of thought in the english language. We also cannot lead without a stronger manufacturing base- including the trades and skills of the working folks who manufacture. Until we return to the American ideal of a self-sufficient America we are doomed to economic decline. Back to basics.
As for culture: we suffer from excess multiculturalism. We also suffer from a backlash to multiculturalism which promotes teleevangelism as truth and seeks to supress science, free thought, and free speech. It is said that America is an open society, but no one wanted it this open-something must give. We can no longer find our own culture in the omnipresent noise. Until TV and radio and books and magazines return to sharing American culture and values and innovation and thought with the masses our society is doomed to view other cultures as dominant.
The challenge of your generation, intern, is to recover American sovereignty of law, thought, culture and technology against a vast rush of nonamerican influence. Cultural, economic and educational superiority does not occur by focusing on everyone else's thought, education and culture in everyone else's language based on their political dictums.America, as allways, is dependent on young Americans for continued freedom and success.

My riposte--just what he wanted:

5178.278 in reply to 5178.259
There is no such thing as "self-sufficient America". There really never has been, and it's certainly too late to create it now. To give one economic example, energy self-sufficiency is a nice idea, but we're a long way from there and going in the opposite direction.
There is such a thing as an emerging global culture, and we have an enormous role to play in it.
When we tried to close the doors to trade, we got the Great Depression. In more recent times, when we've failed to exercise sufficient vigilance in difficult times, we've gotten Pearl Harbor and 9/11. We can not escape the rest of the world, and there are many problems we all share that can only be addressed together. The challenge of this era is coming to grips with that fact, and beginning to think about how we can address it.
I would not say that nation-states and national sovereignty are obsolete, they are simply insufficient to the challenges of the age. We will still need local, state, national, and regional governance; we need to preserve individual self-determination, too; we just need something more.

5178.290 in reply to 5178.278
""There is no such thing as "self-sufficient America". ""
Well now, we shall see. Sovereignty and the right to manufacture here were significant factors in the early days of America, and there are certain parallels to today's economic maladies.
I find most strong proponents of globalism have an agenda. There is one guy who wrote a five part rave about everything from Hegel to Taoism to justify stealing US intellectual property and maintaining unfair trade practices- as a mouthpiece for China.
Self sufficiency has been a hallmark American value throughout our young history. Such notions do not die easily. Regardless of tiny imperfections the gross trend may have already begun. The pendulum is large and heavy, and historicaly has been enforced with much fierce support in the present direction. We shall just have to wait to see how wrong you may be.

5178.393 in reply to 5178.290

I recognize that I may be totally wrong about America's future, because I espouse unpopular views. Therefore, the objectives that I advocate may frequently and even consistently be voted down.
However, I think that you mistake the micro-level self-sufficiency of the American archetypes--the small farmer, the pioneer, the prospector, the entrepreneur, etc.--which surely have been important in American history, with the macro-level fact that America has always been a trading nation (when it's been successful), one that draws strength from immigrants from all over, one that has been repeatedly forced to face the reality of involvement in the messy affairs of the rest of the world. I don't doubt that a populist "Fortress America" stance can still draw support, even on a national level, but I am certain that it cannot succeed for long.
Your post also commented on how "people who advocate globalism always seem to have an agenda" (paraphrasing from memory here). I don't know about that, and I'd suggest that those who don't advocate it have an agenda, too, but I think I'll bare my own agenda. My agenda is always to convince Americans to face up to the realities and to own up to the responsibility our country has to provide positive leadership at the global level.
This might seem an awful lot like the neo-cons, but for two differences: 1) The means to the end is supremely important, as we have seen with Iraq. The Iraqis truly want democracy, or at least self-governance, there is no doubt of that in my mind, but they don't want that imposed at the point of a gun. That, and a pretty strong supposition that we are hypocritical in terms of our true desires for the country, is why we are universally resented there. If we are to move toward a global system of governing the issues that are irrefutably global, it matters enormously how we get there. Putting some turkey like Bolton in the UN to browbeat the nations of the world into cooperating is another good example of how not to do it. 2) There is a difference between owning up to our responsibility and a sense of entitlement. Let me make a personal argument. Since my childhood, I have looked around and seen that I am a fortunate son of the most powerful, rich nation in history. I often asked myself the question, Why? as though there had to be some meaning to that incredibly blessed position that I find myself in. The answer that I come up with is always more or less the same. I must argue for us to do the right thing as a people. I know that the outcome is not certain--the political setbacks are frequent (though there have also been magnificent advances, too).I don't want to ascribe motivations to anyone else; others have to answer for themselves. It appears to me, though, that the neocon viewpoint is to try and take the wonderful advantages and power that we have and exploit them for selfish purposes. Further, to do it from a point of view that assumes the superiority of our lifestyle, culture, and religion in every way.
Edited 8/14/2005 12:43 pm ET by chinshihtang

I may be totally wrong, but I'm a dancing fool. (Frank Zappa, Sheik Yerbuti)

He responds:

Sir, I find your globalism troubeling.
First, the government os the USA has a responsibility to the people of the USA- not to foreign powers or peoples. This is clear in the Declaration, the Constitution and even in the oaths of office. There is NO EXCUSE for our government to use taxpayer funds to advance the agendas of foreign peoples at the expense of Americans.
Second, if we have leaderrship to offer today it is in our notion of self sufficiency. Each country must, for the most part, find a means to become a thriving and stable endeavor. The successful nations of the world cannot sustain those without successful models except in times of unusual disaster.
Third, the realities we face are that America must fend for America. No one else will aid us, but for a few proven allies in times of unusual need. We can only afford international charity our of any surplus we might generate. Our first goal is a strong and thriving America unthreatened by unnneccasary or excessive foreign dependency.
Simply: if we must depend on others- so be it. Then we must manage the national security consequences of that dependency. Our security is not simply threat of war, but threat of terror and of bein held economic hostage to foreign dictums. Today the national security of average Americans is under economic threat by globalist antiamerican forces.
Globalism and the notion that we should buy things elsewhere in preference to US goods and services- simply because it is good for the "global economy" (read as good for someone else's economy)- is now clearly past. The subsidies to multinational corporations that have created record corporate profits but have harmed Americans are now widely exposed and unpopular.In short: your globalism seems to be bunk.

5178.431 in reply to 5178.396

OK, I got your point (over and over): I'll start with the crude response to your summary and say that your fancy rationalizations for selfishness and isolationism are bunk. The American people deserve credit for more than that. Notions of autarchy are absurd today, neither practical nor attainable.
I agree with you to the extent that your argument is that America's federal government, which is mainly concerned with America's federal government, is not up to the task of addressing the world's problems and will not be anytime soon. Perhaps, as you suggest, it never would or should be. That just means that we, the people, have to find other ways, rather than sticking our heads into the sand. It's important (and, these days, easy) to separate consideration of the American people, and their interests, from the interests of the American federal government.

That was a bit too easy to refute, I admit. At least I didn't say his spelling was "bunk".

Kern continues:
The American people are quite generous, not selfish at all. We host the UN, for example. The UN is the source of the globalist world government you and John Lennon desire. The failures of the UN are failures of the globalist agenda.
""Notions of autarchy are absurd today, neither practical nor attainable. ""
Since when is national sovereignty equivalent to autarchy? Furthermore, I am not isolationist. I do believe global trade should occur- just not at the expense of the American middle class via unfair subsidies- nor at the expense of our national security.
""I agree with you to the extent that your argument is that America's federal government, which is mainly concerned with America's federal government, is not up to the task of addressing the world's problems and will not be anytime soon. Perhaps, as you suggest, it never would or should be. ""
I am glad you agree. National governments support nations. Our government is not empowered by the constitution, nor by the people, to hand power over to a "world government" in theory or in practice. Democratic national governments serve the people, and are responsible to them. If not corrupt they form laws that reflect the will of the people, not the will of some global uberclass of multinational corporate managers with foreign driven agendas.

> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: chinshihtang@gmail.com [mailto:chinshihtang@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 4:13 PM
> > > To: mkern@mkern.com
> > > Subject: Recent postings on America's Future
> > >
> > > The following message was sent to you by CHINSHIHTANG while viewing
> > > your Member Profile:
> > >
> > > I'd like to lift some of the dialogue and put in my blog:
> > > chinshihtang.blogspot.com. I'll include what would have been my response to
> > > your last posting (before they shut the topic down).
> > >
> > > I hope you don't mind.


(abridged discussion of permission to reprint)

> On 8/16/05, mkern wrote:
> > So what was the reply you added after the forum closed?


> -----Original Message-----
> From: chin_shih_tang stoner [mailto:chinshihtang@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:45 PM
> To: mkern@mkern.com
> Subject: Re: Recent postings on America's Future
>
I haven't written it yet. You're pretty much right with your
reference to John Lennon, though I wouldn't consider it as something
negative.
The point is, when it comes to the future, we can think about
something beyond that which exists already, and start to make it
happen. I find that there is real absence of vision in American
political discussion, and that basically goes for both parties. I
think that the future, and vision for it, may actually become
important in the 2008 election.

Here's a couple of points I'd include in the response (I'm going to
take my time):
1) About subsidies--I would assume that you are referring to the
deductions companies can take today for the cost of essentially
transferring jobs overseas (one of Kerry's favorite points until he
got the nomination). I'd just put that into the category of "mindless
subsidies", of which we have a lot. Many of them are designed to
protect nonstrategic American industries from foreign competition, so
it works both ways.

2) About the UN: You and I would probably both agree that it is
basically a failed organization. The difference is, I would replace
it--or part of it--with something very different, not based on or
limited to the selfish interests of national governments. I recognize
that, in the case of America, some sort of constitutional amendment
would be required which would specifically authorize an organization,
which I would look to be one representing the free peoples of the
world to act on certain global issues.
The UN was something that was created at a particular time, 60 years
ago, that hasn't really been updated. It was appropriate for
post-WWII, and served our interests at that time. Today, it's out of
date, and doesn't even serve our interests very well, though that
isn't the most important part of the "global test". Putting a turkey
like Bolton in there isn't going to help things, though.

3) America--selfish or generous? I think individual Americans have
plenty of generous impulses. I think our collective
actions--especially those of our government, and particularly this
Administration-- are pretty selfish and self-absorbed. We have a low
level of awareness of issues beyond our shores, given our undoubted
leadership status.



On 8/16/05, mkern wrote:
> Hmmmmmmm...
>
--I don't really think of the reference to JL as negative, just perhaps
idealistic and visionary. We need visions to drive toward, but
implementation is dirty, hard work. Sometimes implementation ugliness
outweighs visionary beauty- as in communism.

--There are many subsidies, hidden and explicit. For example the free
inspection services for imported goods are a subsidy. Doing that right
might cost billions, and is a cost that should be born by the shipper. Then
there is the recent energy bill pork. Add the transportation bill pork.
Then add services to corporations provided by Federal funds which come
mainly from the middle class (%70+) taxes.

--The UN needs reform alright. I say any lawmaking body must have elected
officials and not appointed cronies. If there must be international law, it
should be overseen by the UN or equiv. and officials should be ELECTED.
Furthermore, as a federated government, the scope of power of the UN should
be strictly and clearly limited.
--Selfish Amerca? Heck no. We work to better everyone- far too much in
times like theese when we need to focus on internal reform. We are
suffering from massive, low grade, internal corruption. I, at least, would
say that when Congress repeatedly screams that reform is required on
political donations and the majority of Americans disagree with each new
bill that that is low grade corruption. Government cannot be a charity
organization- corruption results. We are drownding in wasteful government
based on subsidies to the rich, the poor, the corporate and the foreign.
What we do need is a massive new branch of service, or massive expansion of
the peace corps, and mandatory service for each American. This could
perform those functions which are not charity but are required to maintain
the nation's infrastructure and clean up our worldwide messes. DoD is meant
to destroy enemies, not build civilizations. The mix and match service
advocated by McCain is a bad idea, however- one service per enlistment
please.
>
In short: funneling charity funds through government is limited by
government ineffectiveness as a charity, via politics, not by taxes... so
other organizations should (and do) act as more effective charities.
Government charity should be limited to government surpluss, for example--it
makes little sense to tax and harm Americans to help Nigerians or whatever.
Have you seen Detroit? Limited improvement of government altruism is
possible, within narrow boundries, if clearly purposed. We need efficient,
effective government, measured by return on taxation- and efficient
charities by common measures in use today. Governance is the issue.



Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 10:59 PM
To: mkern@mkern.com
Subject: Re: Recent postings on America's Future

You make several good points. Certainly Americans can display great
generosity, as with the tsunami relief. I think the goodwill is
there, but there's no focus to our effort.

The most disappointing thing is the lack of interest in domestic
reform. Frankly, I don't see much happening to get the corruption out
of elections. Without that, the policies are going to remain a
pork-bellies marketplace.

Some kind of national service requirement has always made sense, but
again I see little sponsorship or public interest.

I wonder what kind of thing is needed to stir the sleeping giant--the
American public--into action?


You said: You make several good points. Certainly Americans can display
great generosity, as with the tsunami relief. I think the goodwill is
there, but there's no focus to our effort.

Forced charity is not charity. Centralized institutionalized charity would
be focused, but would not represent more than an opportunity for corruption
with vast sums of captive money- and a marketing campaign for America
masquerading as a charity.