Topic: America's Future--Part 2 (Progress)

Then, some abridged dialogue:

From mhr5: ...
Utopians, who actually expect that human beings and their institutions can reach a state of absolute perfection, are doomed to disappointment. And whatever else it was Bolshevism was utopian in every sense- and a monstrous failure. The men who directed it had as their goal the creation of a world of social justice and human equality. I am still deeply suspicious of politicians who talk in that vein

To which:

Have you got a better goal to suggest? History will not be kind to the Americans of this crucial period, if our legacy is the squandering of the fossil fuels, degrading of our environment, colossal consumption, and a permanent clash of civilizations.I agree that the Bolsheviks basically had it all wrong from the start. Unlike them (and the Bushites), we need to apply means consistent with our objectives.

Have to give credit to this--one of the best posts on the subject, in my view:
From:
TrueAim1
Aug-10 12:46 am
To:
Eve Chen (WPIntern)
(176 of 434)

In the future this will be regarded as the era of squandered opportunities.
A time when corporate interests consolidated their control over the U.S. government.
A new age of corporate robber barons, facilitated by the G.O.P. maladministration and the craven G.O.P. Congress. Together they take the corruption of the federal government by corporate opportunists to new levels.
A time when the president turned his back on science and followed the world's richest oil company advice to torpedo international efforts to rein in greenhouse gasses.

lornejn suggested that "material progress" needed to be a goal for America (as opposed to "social justice and equality") which provoked the following from me:

5178.258 in reply to 5178.241

I would simply say that social justice and equality of opportunity in the world would be a very material form of progress, then add the following:
Any thinking person should recognize that there is nothing more significant in this world (at least to us humans) than the continuing experiment of human civilization. The American Republic has been (was?) a very important innovation in our civilization and advanced many ideals, including liberty of expression, opposition to slavery, and opposition to tyranny. It had an unusual opportunity in the period after World War II, and especially since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Cold War, to provide leadership to the whole world on a scale and with potential positive influence that is unparalleled in human history.
Instead, we have become obsessed with our "material progress", much of it borne upon the labors and intimidation of other peoples. We spend and consume blindly without thought of the future, and we fool ourselves about the reasons for our imperialistic endeavors. We allow our federal government and our military, which combine to form the strongest power in the world, to endanger our own commitments to liberty. We spout hypocrisy about the religious underpinnings of our greed and selfishness, and we actively degrade our biological environment.
Quite simply, we need to take ownership of the opportunity that we have been granted, through accident or design, and start thinking about what human civilization might become, how we can start to make it happen, and what kind of people we must become in order for us to fulfill our enormous potential as a race. Then, we need to show some leadership--not imposing our will, but leadership through example, and through reasoned argument. I am optimistic enough to believe that this could be America's future, but realistic enough to know we are not going that way yet. At all.
Edited 8/12/2005 1:30 am ET by chinshihtang

To be fair, I was twisting words a bit--for which he got me:

From:
lornejn
Aug-12 12:08 pm
To:
chinshihtang
(279 of 434)

5178.279 in reply to 5178.258

<>
First, you have added a couple of words that completely change the concept from what the original poster that I was responding to had said.He said the goal should be equality (implying equality of outcomes), which is quite different from equality of opportunity. I am much more supportive of equality of opportunity. I do doubt that this can ever be completetly attained, but there are measures that would move us closer to this objective.
Second, you refer to "in the world" where this discussion is about the future of America.
Third, you are using a different meaning for the word material. In your context material means significant, while in mine material means having more things, inventions and systems that make life easier, healthier, longer and more productive. If you look back you will see that I was not saying that social justice and equality were not worthy objectives, but was saying that surely we have material objectives to improve our lives as well. We live better because of the advances of the last 100 years and can surely achieve further progress in the next 100.


From:
chinshihtang
Aug-12 12:23 pm
To:
lornejn
(280 of 434)

5178.280 in reply to 5178.279

OK, you're right: I twisted your point to my ends a bit.
But I do have two counterpoints to emphasize: 1) The future of America is central to the future of mankind; both are of great consequence, but the latter particularly so. I would deny the possibility for America alone to succeed in the world for long.
2) I think the material progress, the technological progress, and the scientific progress are all unstoppable (barring a total collapse of society). The challenge is on the social side, which moves much more slowly: can we make ourselves worthy of our scientific, technical, and material capabilities? All this power--to what end?